This site has to be the funniest thing I’ve seen in a while.
Some arguments for the existence of god on the site (paraphrased by moi):
“hey, everything had to start somewhere… so it MUST have been started by GOD”
(see comment on third quote)
“the Earth has water, and a lot of it… see… GOD”
Wow, so I guess that whole explanation about Earth being far enough from the sun that water doesn’t boil/vapor/gas but also close enough to maintain water in a liquid form (instead of ice) didn’t hold water with creationists…. instead it is Magic that makes the water on Earth liquid (some of it, anyway).
“energy cannot be created or destroyed…therefore…GOD created it!”
Why can these people so easily accept that GOD has always existed, but they can’t accept that the energy of the universe may have always existed. Hello… WHAT WAS GOD CREATED FROM, THEN? WHO CREATED HIM?! It is amazing to me that these people can’t just sit back and look at their writing and see “oh yeah, I guess if you look at it at the macro level, the idea of a Creator is synonymous with the idea of the Universe itself.” But, no…
Also, the idea that “life” is ONLY carbon based is a pretty blind way of seeing things when looking at it on a universal scale. Even intelligent life could theoretically spring up in the absense of water, oxygen, etc. The first self-aware computer will prove that… (and will that make us Gods?)
The really scary (not funny) thing is that this “Institute” wants the state of Texas to grant it the ability to confer Masters degrees in Science!
Only idiots believe in God. Their beliefs couldn’t possibly be because of reason, logic, science or anything intelligent like that. Yeah, must be idiocy that they believe that way. What stupid dummies religious people are.
Doing something dumb doesn’t make you a dummy. I’m sure there are members of MENSA that have gone skydiving. Skydiving is jumping out of a plane = dumb. I know intelligent people that still smoke cigarettes. The smoking of the cigarette doesn’t make them dumb, but the fact that they’re intelligent doesn’t make smoking cigarettes a smart thing to do. Organized religion with dogmatic adherence to the idea of a single “creator” is dumb. That doesn’t make religious people dumb, they are simply making (what is most likely) a bad choice.
I’d also like to note that I have family members who read this blog and are christian, and have no qualms about calling me (literally – calling on the phone) and telling me their displeasure with any of my opinions on organized religion.
They’re still wrong.
Well, obviously I can’t say conclusively that they’re wrong – but out of all the infinite possible explanations for our universe – that a giant bearded man clapped his fingers is pretty hard to put in the top ten.
The real problem I have with any religion is the idea that they KNOW why everything is here, how everything came to be, etc. When in reality, it is logically completely impossible to know for sure (while alive and operating with our current biological limitations) the answers to any of those questions. Whether the earth is 6,000 years old or 6 billion….you weren’t there to see it… I wasn’t there to see it… nobody alive was there to see it. Even according to biblical dogma no human was there to see it, as it was created BEFORE Adam (and – humor of humors… many religious scholars spend ridiculous amounts of time debating which day it actually was…).
I find it amazing that the same people who look at fossil records and say “god is making it LOOK like that to FOOL you” turn around and think that a book written a few thousand years ago is the verbatim voice of God…. God may be able to fake fossil remains, but HUMANS can write fictitious stories! Which one is more likely?
By your own logic, your adherence to your “faith” is no different than having a religious conviction.
Sometimes you just need to listen to your own voice and hear what it is you are really saying.
(sigh)… by my own logic I have no faith to adhere to. Faith is defined as : “firm belief in something for which there is no proof” I don’t hold any firm belief about the origins of the world. It clearly isn’t the same. “I don’t know” is not the same as “I know absolutely.” Please tell me you don’t apply this logic when grading your students’ tests….
The only instance in which your point would be valid is if I had this same “belief” about something that could be immediately proven. I.e. if I said “I may or may not have a nose” and then you said “then what is this?” and pinched my nose. I don’t see anybody pinching God.
Also – if I run with what you’ve asserted and we say I have “faith” in my beliefs – how exactly does that prove your beliefs right again over mine?? Even if mine WAS “faith”…I can come up with a more convincing argument (which I hope I don’t have to state again…as it is only about 200 pixels north).
Of course you have faith. Faith is believing in something that is not seen. You have “faith” that some day someone will prove scientifically how single cell organisms came into existence by means other than intelligent design. You have a conviction that some day it will be proven.
I didn’t go about to prove you wrong in your assertions. I was only trying to point out your disrespect for those who have religious beliefs. In Hindu philosophy, Vaisheshika, a person can have mastery over atoms because the physical is just a matter of perception. You and I both know that if you walk across a busy freeway it’s highly likely that you could get hit and that no power of the mind could give you mastery over the cars around you at the atomic level. However, a Hindu still deserves your respect regardless of how silly or dumb you think Vaisheshika to be. Even someone who worships pterosaurs and thinks that some day pterosaurs will return to the earth and one day rule again–deserves your respect.
After all, respect is what you would want people to give you in your beliefs.
Where did I ever say I had faith that someone will prove scientifically how single cell organisms blah blah blah…? WHERE? Did you read what I wrote AT ALL?? I don’t think you did, or you’d see that I said KNOWING FOR SURE HOW LIFE WAS CREATED IS IMPOSSIBLE. Not sure how you manipulated that into me saying that I know it will be proven how it was done….
People don’t deserve respect just for being people. That doesn’t mean you automatically disrespect everyone, but respect is something earned. Scientist show evidence for their theories, thus their theories deserve an appropriate level of respect. Organized religion demands respect from a point of fear (“accept Jesus or burn in hell!”), that I cannot respect.
Still, I respect my religious aunts because I respect their generosity, parenting skills, etc., not their beliefs. Their religion is just a small part of who they are. Which highlights one more difference between people like me and hardcore christians. I don’t believe your religion is (or should be) a defining point of what you are. Being a Christian doesn’t make you a good person (how many priest molestation cases do we need to prove this?)… living your life in such a way that it benefits others makes you a good person. Picking a religion isn’t you DOING anything (for others). I shouldn’t respect you just because you’re a certain “faith.” If you give to charity, mentor children, etc., that is great… but I see it as independent of your beliefs.
PS – your description of Vaisheshika is closer to reality, we just doubt their ability to actually manipulate anything. These “crazy” thoughts are the basis for some of the more popular theories in science right now like String Theory.
I don’t think science will disprove god (hard to disprove something that probably doesn’t exist anyway), but one day we will understand enough about our world that “miracles” and the “unknown” can be explained without superstition, and people won’t need it anymore. Christianity used to explain the solstice….(it was actually the solstice that created Christianity…but we’ll get into that another time)
Sorry, I figured that if you were atheist, that you believed some day someone would be able to prove that theory as many atheists do believe. (And of course I should not assume that you are athiest) But you did state here that you think one day computers may have the ability to become self aware. Wouldn’t that be basis for others to think your beliefs are “crazy”? But should others disrespect you for what you believe? No.
(On a side note, wouldn’t believing in the possibility of self awareness in computers constitute a belief of faith in science?)
When you meet people on the street do you yell and scream at them? Why not? According to you, people don’t deserve respect just for being people. Chances are, when you meet others on the street you are polite and respectful because you want that in return. Everyone deserves respect. But you give the argument that because a person asks you to respect their beliefs, and their beliefs conflict with your own, therefore you do not have to respect that person. I do not have to DO anything, but if I make the claim that I am of a certain religious faith, I do expect others to respect my beliefs and not call them “magic” or the like, just as you would want others to respect your beliefs or the lack thereof.
And your argument of molesting priests is very thin because not all priests engage in such actions and you know that. As someone here would say, the exception does not prove the rule. Or, just as you would not want others to judge you by the actions of other people who don’t believe in the existence of God. That isn’t fair to you.
How nice of you to excuse the sillyness of your Aunt’s religious beliefs in “magic” because she does other nice/good things. Do you see the disrespect in your thinking now?
I think it’s funny that you get so heated up in these types of discussions. That’s all it is–a discussion. You can take or leave it as is.
I never said I was an atheist. In fact, without saying it directly, I espoused the beliefs of an agnostic…. which I am.
If someone wants to think my beliefs are crazy I can do nothing to prevent that. And if they disrespect me for it that is their choice. I’d rather stand up for what I believe/know than worry about anyone thinking I’m crazy. By the way – my “crazy futurist theories” are shared by a lot of the smartest people alive who are researching the very subject.
And no, that doesn’t constitute faith. I’m not saying it WILL happen with certainty, I’m saying it is likely. When the pastor preaches on Sunday he doesn’t warn you that judgement day will “probably” happen, he says “make sure your ass is with Jesus because Armageddon is comin’!”
Why would I yell and scream at someone I meet on the street? I don’t think being nice to someone new is respect. I think that is just being human… However, upon looking up the actual textbook definition it appears it could go my way or your way. One definition is to just be considerate of others (which I think is fine with strangers), but another is to hold someone in high esteem and believe they are honorable… which I don’t think should be automatic, you have to earn that.
Again, you didn’t read what I wrote. I said I can respect a person – but not their beliefs. I do not expect anyone to agree with me. Calling yourself a Christian doesn’t earn you a free pass from ridicule. Nobody gets a free pass… that is why this is a free country.
As for priests… again .. READ what I wrote. I wasn’t proving all Christians are evil, I was proving all Christians are not automatically good people just by virtue of being Christian.
I do not see the disrespect. I have family members who used to smoke (and some who still do). I think smoking is stupid. Do you disagree? So…if you agree that smoking is stupid does that mean you think my family members are stupid?? HOW DARE YOU!! Tell me about how you believe gays go to hell and your relationship with your sister again….
Who says I’m heated? I could be doing all this with a smile on my face… =)
wow, how thin can we make this?
what happens when it isn’t big enough for a whole word?
And where in my faith does it say that gays go to hell? Since Mormons don’t actually believe in hell that’s a far stretch to accuse me of.
But we agree to disagree. You assert that only people who earn respect deserve it. I assert that all people should be treated with respect regardless of what they believe or how they act. (I believe there was some nonsense that even suspected terrorists should be treated with respect, Guantanamo Bay should be shut down, something like that.)
Whether you call it humanity or respect it does not matter. Whether you call it faith or a belief can be argued as well. If someone says they “know” someone will happen they are no longer operating on faith or belief, rather they have knowledge. Changing the argument to one of semantics does not change the original premise.
There are many people who see evidence in the world that the existence of God is more than just a strong possibility or probability. You may examine the same evidence and say it’s not likely. Many people look at evidence in the world and believe that self-awareness in computers is more than just a strong possibilty or probability. Others would examine the same evidence and say it’s not a possibility. However, I would still think your beliefs deserve respect.
Although the Vaishesika system developed independently from the Nyaya, the two eventually merged because of their closely related metaphysical theories. In its classical form, however, the Vaishesika school differed from the Nyaya in one crucial respect: where Nyaya accepted four sources of valid knowledge, the Vaishesika accepted only perception and inference. Vaishesika atomism also differs from the atomic theory of modern science: according to the Vaishesikas, the functioning of atoms was guided or directed by the will of the Supreme Being. This is therefore a theistic form of atomism
My god is better than your god because my god said so. Lord of the flies indeed.
“Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius”. Good christians are like that.
By the way, I think this cartoon is hilarious.
(I’m putting my response from the other thread here so it is easier to read)
You got me there – I was not aware that Mormons don’t believe in hell. Where does one not right with the lord go when they die then?
The problem is when a christian “knows” something (about the existance of god) they actually don’t (except from their perspective). An insane person KNOWS there is a pink elephant stalking them. That doesn’t make pink elephants real. I don’t have to respect their belief in pink elephants either.
The problem with the people who “see evidence” of God…is that they are only seeing what they want to see. This is a psychological phenomenon in every beginners college psychology class. If you tell yourself something false enough, and you really want to believe it.. .you eventually will. Factual data observed hundreds, thousands or even millions of times in independent experiments in different locations is not the same thing as seeing what you want to see. Many times the greatest scientific discoveries are in fact unintended mistakes. It is the difference between knowing unicorns exist because you’ve completed a coloring book with horses in it – and believing in the existence of the moon because you can touch a piece of the moon at Griffith Park Observatory and talk to Neil Armstrong. (I don’t remember if they have a moon rock… I know there is a meteorite)
It is possible that one (or even all) of those people who have heard or seen God really did. Possible, but not probable. And that includes Joseph Smith. I was flabbergasted when I read the book you sent me. Smith’s story was validated by the fact that… three (was it three?) other “honorable” guys who “would never lie” believed him… and didn’t go back on their words before they died. No magic stick that turns dirt into gold or anything… just a story, and some dudes who believed he was telling the truth…
Ever think about why God would need a prophet? When our president wants to tell the country something he doesn’t go to Joe Taxpayer in the middle of the night, appear as a glowing angel and tell him to spread the message to all his friends about tax reform..he just goes on YouTube. Why would moses have to go get commandments from the top of a mountain? What prevented god from just telling all of us? If god were really a god he could just appear in front of every living person at once and say the same thing. Of course, he could also build us so that those commandments were already inside us (like how we build computers with rules to follow)…. but then we’d get into how ridiculous the idea of God is again… damn my circular logic!
Mormons believe that all men will earn some sort of reward for their lives on earth. It has to do with keeping the first estate in heaven prior to our birth here on Earth. Because everyone who is born on the Earth today kept their first estate in heaven, they will earn some sort of reward for that. (another topic off on a tangent) Essentially, we believe that the reward a person will receive in heaven is equal to their obedience to the commandments. Those will are more obedient will receive a greater reward. (there is whole discussion we can have regarding sin and obedience and heavenly rewards but your blog comment section wouldn’t allow for it)
Someone could produce thousands upon millions of experiments and still not be able to prove with certainty the theory of evolution, does that make it false? There is enough evidence in the world to show that the theory has merit, just as there is enough evidence that the theory of intelligent design has merit. Does that mean that all those people who believe in evolution are deluding themselves and only see what they want to see because they can’t prove it and vice versa?
If one fact to the contrary were to prove the entire theory wrong then we can no longer believe in physics. According to the laws of physics, a bumblebee shouldn’t be able to fly. The wings are too thin and flimsy to support the weight of a bumblebee in flight or even produce the movement necessary to achieve flight. But as the saying goes, “The bumble bee flies anyway.” Does that make all our assumptions about physics false? No. There is obviously some law or rule that hasn’t been explained or discovered yet to explain why the bumblebee flies. Like wise, it is possible that there are unexplained phenomena that we don’t know which might fully show just how the world was created through intelligent design. Just because it hasn’t been explained doesn’t mean it can’t be.
As for pink elephants. If a person wants to believe in pink elephants, or even sees them in his own mind, who cares? Does that hurt you? Much like the debate of many political subjects, when the actions of others affect people around them, that is when you have to discuss how those subjects will be handled in society. Many people know that smoking can cause adverse health conditions. If people choose to smoke, that is their choice. I wouldn’t say it is a stupid one. It’s just a choice. Some men like to smoke cigars, that is their choice to do so. Other people drink despite the health warnings, that is their choice to do so. However, when someone wants to smoke next to me in a public place and adversely affect my health through second hand smoke, then we need to decide as a society how we will handle that. If someone wants to drink then get into a car, we need to decide as a society how we will handle that. In both cases, others can be adversely affected by another person’s actions. If a person has beliefs that don’t affect you, who cares?
As for Joseph Smith and faith, first off, Smith wasn’t the only person who saw the plates or aided in the translation. There were 11 witnesses total. (it’s in the book Truth Restored) Why did God only appear to Joseph and not all 11? Why were there only a few people in biblical times that saw God or were prophets? One way look at that, how much faith does it require to believe in something you have seen—none. To me there is purpose in having faith. In my mind, a person has a much greater appreciation for something they’ve had to struggle for than something that is given to them on a silver platter. I don’t know the answers or why God doesn’t appear to everyone; I’m not God. I don’t know what his purposes are or what it is he is trying to accomplish. I make attempts to understand it, but who knows? The answer might be there in front of me all along but it’s like an adult talking to an infant. I may not have the capacity to understand the answers regarding God even if they are right in front of me.
You go pink elephant dude. You rock!
Hmm, so mormonism is a kind of points system. But what if you keep zero commandments, you go to hobo heaven?
There is a big difference between millions of experiments, and “enough evidence of intelligent design.” One is based on experiments, another is based on reinterpretation of the facts (i.e. “those fossils aren’t REALLY 20 million years old… I think”). The whole point of science is the set up experiments that will not let you simply see what you want to see. That is why you can’t compare science and religion as theories of equal footing. One is a fairytale that is adhered to without question and the other contains theories that many many many people worked their entire lives to validate (if not prove).
As for the bumblebee, this may interest you: http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_wang.hrs.html I’m sure the creation museum/website/whatever conveniently leaves this information out. Explaining the bumblebee and explaining creation is comparing apples to oranges because we can still observe the bumblebee. We cannot observe the “moment” of creation. Thus it is impossible to in the future “discover” proof of intelligent design. Impossible. ….unless we can invent time travel – which at the moment is still thought to be impossible (to go backwards anyway).
Religious beliefs affect a lot of what we do in this country. Abortion… Stem Cells… Education…etc. So yes, a person believing a pink elephant told him stem cells are bad does affect me. Because I’ll be damned if I’m going to let my dad (or mom or whomever) die because stem cell research that could have lead to a cure for their disease was stopped by a Pink Elephantite President.
As for Joseph Smith. Saying “I can’t understand God’s way” only leaves the door open for any shyster to sell you whatever story they can concoct. Hey snake oil salesman, I don’t know what snake oil looks like – so sell me whatever you like! Sheesh…don’t make it THAT easy.. at least make them work for it a little….
If you admit you don’t understand how god works…doesn’t that mean maybe nobody ever did? Maybe all of the organized religions were created to take advantage of that fact…
A reinterpretation of facts? Not so. Mormons believe that the earth was created in periods called “days” not that the earth was created in six days as you and I understand that period of time. How long those “days” lasted we do not know and we do not know how time on earth relates to time in heaven or even if there is such a connection at all. Could the creative period during which animals were created have taken millions of years? Certainly.
And just because we do know of something or haven’t been able to explain it doesn’t mean that is doesn’t exist. Certainly gravity and other laws of physics existed long before man discovered them or was able to explain it. Your argument that you can’t observe the creation of something therefore it is impossible to discover doesn’t hold either. You can’t observe the creation of laws of physics but you can see the effects thereof.
You only asserted what I already said. When there is a conflict of interest in belief systems that is when we use our political system to decide the right thing for our system of government. If a person can convince others that the pink elephant who hates stem cells has a good point does it matter where the idea came from? Anyone can pass a law if they get enough people to agree. That’s a observation about our society not religious beliefs. It doesn’t matter that the beliefs come from religion or science. In the end, the argument with the best logic, reason, and evidence usually prevails. If that winning argument is based on non-religious evidence, so be it. But you can’t have it both ways. If you want everyone to accept your non-religious arguments you can’t prohibit others making arguments based on religious views. You want to rule out any argument that even has the slightest bit of religious connotation simply because it is religious however wrong or right it may be. To me the notion that a baby is not a baby until it comes out of the womb and takes a breath is a false scientific belief, but that doesn’t keep Obama from allowing late stage, partial birth abortions.
Well, that is great that the Mormons recognize that the earth took longer than a literal 6 days to create. However, certain christians really do believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Keep in mind this blog was not about Mormons specifically.
Observing physics is not the same as observing the creation of physics. You aren’t making sense. I’m not denying the universe exists…just as I’m not denying physics exists… The very existance of something doesn’t prove it was created by the divine… the existance of physics was likely “created” at the same time as the universe, so speaking of the creation of physics and the creation of the universe is speaking of the same thing… to whichI’ve already said we cannot observe.
It does matter where ideas come from! Especially in a society where a lot of people vote from their “beliefs” and not from studying the issues. The scientist’s idea that stem cells need to be studied for their benefits comes from a place of learning, experimentation, and growth for the health of human-kind. The (typical) Christian’s idea that stem cells are bad comes from what their religious leaders tell them to believe. None of us can be an expert on everything (or very many things at all), but the agnostic/atheist seeks out experts in a field to form an opinion… a religious person asks the bible… I DO NOT want public policy written from the often misinterpretted opinions in an old book instead of experts.
The silly thing about pro-lifers is they don’t realize that whether it is wrong or right the choice isn’t theirs anyway. It is up for debate when “life” begins… but if a young girl wants an abortion bad enough she’ll make it happen with or without legal help. I’ve known enough pregnant teenagers (when I was a teenager) to learn this. In most abortion cases do you really think the aborted child was aborted on a whim, and not because they would have had a hard life? ….and no, living in an orphanage is not a charmed life. And from the adopted children I know, neither is being adopted. Nevermind the fact that we’re overpopulated, undernourished, etc. enough as it is. The fact that the pope still thinks giving condoms out in Africa is a bad idea is a perfect example of why public policy should never ever ever ever be based on religious beliefs.
– but now this religious discussion is spilling over into areas we could argue about forever…
If a man has the ability to cure cancer does it matter where he got the answer from? If everyone he treated walked away cancer free would you refuse to try his methods if he stated that God gave him the answer? I guess you would becuase it matters where the answer came from.
Most Christians don’t have problems with stem cell study research. They do have a problem with creating embryos just for the sake of harvesting stem cells then destroying the embryos after science is done with it. Recent advances in stem cell research has proven that stem cells from embryos are not necessary and the more promising research is coming from cells harvested from adults, not embryos.
If we have laws governing whether or not two people are murdered when a pregnant woman is killed and her unborn fetus could have survived outside the womb, then certainly abortion is not a victimless crime.
and yes you are right about the spilling over thing . . .
Yes, it still matters. I would extremely dubious of anyone claiming to have a cure for anything but cannot show how it is done. The “cure” may be just masking the cancer in some way since there is no scientific observation involved. In this way we could say that NyQuil “cures” the cold. Boy, wouldn’t it be dumb to question that…
That is great that it works out that adult stem cells are going to work just as good. But what if they didn’t? Not all problems work out to a convenient satisfactory conclusion for both parties.
If you define a pimple on my face as a victim, then you can throw me in jail for popping it – I’ll give you that.
The question is, who came up with the idea to give pimples victim status? …and how big of a pimple does it have to be? If I put on clearasil every night before bed does that make a mass murderer? Where do you draw the line?
I’ve often thought of bringing murder charges against the girls in high school who wouldn’t date me… after all – that action surely killed our future child, did it not?
future children? yes definitely. LMAO
Still, we are getting away from the original argument that people with different beliefs deserve respect even if you don’t agree with those beliefs. No amount of debate or discussion will prove that one way or another. Even if I were to receive absolute knowledge right this instant that God does not exist and never did, I wouldn’t disrespect others’ beliefs in God. Believing in God does not consitutue disrepect. Calling faith “magic” or “silly” is disrespect, hands down.
Power to the pink elephant man and the those who believe the world is flat.
Just a thought, have you heard of Clarke’s third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic?
Maybe I believe in magic as well then, no?
But seriously, Magic is defined as: “an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source.” Are you saying God doesn’t have “extraordinary power” and you aren’t claiming his influence is supernatural? Isn’t God’s work magic?
As for silly: “Exhibiting a lack of wisdom or good sense”
Good sense would normally tell us a giant with a white beard didn’t create the universe. He also wouldn’t create a catch-22 system for his own children to trick them into burning in fire forever and ever. Doesn’t that sound silly? Actually you’re right, it doesn’t sound silly, it sounds sadistic…